10.18.2010

Above all...To thine own self be true...

Hey guys,
Tonight is not going to be a regular post...because something has been bothering me lately.
Badly.
I am a Christian.
A southern Baptist...
So, we all know what church says about homosexuality...
What you don't know about me is that I have a very good friend who is gay.
This friend is not out to any but a very few.
This friend is one of the most intelligent, sensitive and caring people you would ever want to meet.
This friend is a good person.
This friend  was comfortable enough with me to tell me, which I will always view as a huge honor.
What we never hear in popular media is how we, as Christians, are to treat people.
Churches should address this.
Mine does...I don't know how many others do..
We should treat people who think differently, and believe differently..
with love.
It is not our job to judge others.
It is our job to keep tabs on OURSELVES.
religion and government co exist
BUT SHOULD NOT INTERTWINE..
what happens when that happens is theocracy and it is ugly. (think Iran)
Jesus said render unto ceaser the things which are ceaser's and God the things which are God's.
The less government intrusion into the private lives of others the better.
We may be a Christian Majority now..but someday we may become a muslim majority or a hindu majority.
We don't want religion running our government, nor do we want our government running religion.

What has been  bothering me is the story of a boy who was beaten up by four or five young men..
They told him that he was a bad word about being Gay, that he needed to go home and hang himself.
He went home and hung himself.
What did the world lose that day?
Who knows.
Then in a link below, a similar thing happened to this guy..but they told him he should 'go to hell where he belongs".
It left me with these thoughts:
A.) I had no idea God himself was walking around on  earth passing judgement..
This amazed me as I am pretty sure the only one who gets to pass judgement is GOD and since I hadn't heard Gabriel's trumpet...I knew the second coming wasn't nigh...So..WTH?.

B.) I can only assume that they believe in God (or some version of him) seeing as how they threw the word Hell around. They threw the judgement around and they told that poor young man where they thought he ought to go.

C.) They give Christians a BAD NAME...and in doing so give Christ a bad name.

We aren't to judge outside of believers...we are to judge within.
and even then we are to approach the person
with love
And I can only say that either these boys were backslidden beyond comprehension or they aren't Christians at all...but false believers.
Why AND HOW could I make such a statement.
Because as a believer, I can.
Because they presumed to be judge, jury and ultimately executioner... I can call them out.
When  you declare you are a Christian, you open yourself up to a community of  people who are to keep you in check.
So...
Because the fruit needs to bear out.
What should the fruits of the spirit of a Christian be?
LOVE
JOY
PEACE
LONGSUFFERING
KINDNESS
GOODNESS
GENTLENESS
SELF CONTROL
who is the accuser?
Satan.
Not Christ
Not Christians.
We are to have discernment in our own lives.
In the end I believe we will stand before the judgement seat and hear what God has to say...
Does everyone believe this?
NO.
Is it my job to make everyone live according to my beliefs?
NO.
Now before I go on to the next bit...let me just say that I think sincere people can disagree about the origins of homosexuality...and I don't think disagreement equals hate.
I believe that the church has the right to define marriage in it's own way...within the church.
We, as americans have the right to disagree.
As a Christian we have the obligation to live lives according to our beliefs.
It is my job to be a light of love for God...

All human beings are children of God.
He doesn't love us anymore than he loves anyone ELSE!
We can do nothing under our own power to make ourselves 'good people'.
We are all on the same playing field honey.

All I could think of was my friend...I will call this friend M.
My friend M.
What would the world be like without M in it?
What would we have missed without M's sense of humor...and one day I hope to goodness that M is able to write a book...because M is remarkably talented.
M. comes from a backward place where  if M. came out, M. would have a hard time keeping friends..M. would dissappoint their family, maybe even lose their job.
Maybe M would have been tracked down...beaten....called ugly names and then been told to hang themselves...and then what.
Then I wouldn't know M.
I will be enabling anonymous comments so if M wants to comment M can.
I would like to apologize to the gay community on behalf of any anger or intolerance or hurt caused by Christians who don't know enough bible to show love and compassion.
I realize I can't speak for all of us...but at least I can speak for me.
I hope we can get to a point in this country when we can stop being so angry and afraid and start dealing with each other as human beings  who are deserving of love and compassion and a place in our society.
Being Gay doesn't disqualify you from doing a good job...or being a good friend...or sister, or mother, aunt...or father, uncle or brother.
I thought long and hard about this.
The church and the state are two seperate entities.
Gay marriage should fall to the states...period.
Those powers not invested in the federal government fall to the states.
And being Gay shouldn't disqualify you from having a family.
I think  until we get to the point where there are civil unions...

(Much like the old laws stating that blacks and whites couldn't marry...)
saying that we can't treat Gays as second class citizens is talking out both sides of our mouths.
Because when you block people from doing things like:
Marrying
adopting
being in the military
being able to keep your job even if everyone knows you are gay...did you know in many states it is legal to fire someone for being gay?
To be able to freely associate
its a right garantueed by the constitution....
They are human beings and children of God.
And as human beings
They deserve someone to love and to love them in return.
Will I piss people off with this?
Yes.
I am okay with that.
Have a good one guys.
Now a link that pushed me over the edge and forced me to write about this:

That's all....
Hugs,
Chris

35 comments:

Lanie Painie said...

That's an awesome post. It's so nice to find a Christian who "gets it" once in a while. There are a few of you out there :-)

Robin said...

Freaking awesome post, Chris. I find that most of the people who hate gays are people don't know any gay people. What they hate is an idea. What they really hate is the image of gay people having sex. It grosses them out. My response to that is always, "Do you sit around and picture your parents having sex?"

The answer is ALWAYS the same. "AHHH NO. That is gross."

From there I move on to, "Do you picture every hetero couple you meet having sex?" It is about that time that the point starts to sink in. You can control your thoughts because you do it every day. It really isn't pleasant to think of MOST people having sex. So, why focus on it? Once you get past that, the arguments get weaker.

However, you made so many EXCELLENT points that I am not even sure where to start. I do believe that sometimes Christians don't understand that the biggest thing working against Christianity is some of the people who trumpet their views the loudest. And that is really sad.

Anyway, great post. Thank you for putting it out there.

MargieAnne said...

Chris you wrote this beautifully. I'm so glad you are able to express your thoughts on controversial subjects so clearly.

I agree with you almost 100% I do have a problem with Gay Marriages because they cannot be marriages in the Godly sense. Civil Unions, yes, but I cannot for the life of me see how the Church can bless a relationship that isn't part of God's plan. For the same reason I am uncomfortable with Gay people bringing up children, in the same way that I find it extremely sad to see children in single parent families because of separation and divorce. I know many Solo and Gay parents are probably making a lot more successful job of bringing up their families than I did but there remains the principle if you like of the family being something of a pattern for God's family and the deep need of all children to experience a Father's love.

I know the world is not all rosy and we all live in imperfect situations and Gay Families can be very loving, supportive, sensitive etc. We all make the best of what we have and what we are but I draw the line at legalising Gay marriages and parenting.

You wrote a while ago about there being a right way and one that might seem right. In this case I believe that while homosexuality will always exist because we are imperfect that same sex relationships cannot be made even a close equal to Godly marriage.

I am running the risk of sounding judgemental when I truly believe that it is in mankind's best interest to understand that there are some things that are best not practiced. This is one and yet God loves the Gay person as much as He loves me. For that reason there are some powerful ministries to support those who wish to leave the Gay Lifestyle.

That doesn't make it alright to discriminate or be cruel which is evil and shows lack of love and compassion an any level

Your friend is blessed. You are a very special person.

For a time one of my sons was extremely confused and while he didn't turn toward homosexuality he did hurt a very precious girl. The thing is I love him so much I could never turn away from him no matter what he does. Hurt, disgusted, upset and angry by his behaviour as I was, he knows that I still love him. God is like that only more so because he has the gift of New Life.

I feel as though I've expressed myself poorly.

Whatever one's belief love for the person must be paramount and you have written a list of the attributes that go with love.

Blessings.

'Yellow Rose' Jasmine said...

Very well said, Chris. This is difficult territory. Usually when speaking with others that don't 'get' Christians, I never get far enough to explain in a way similar to what you just did. I get fire and hate breathed down my neck instead and just shut down. To me it is just as most people understand that Muslim extremists can't speak for people of the Muslim faith, then why can't anybody get it that the same goes for extremists of any group, including Christians? Sad that I am still not sure I should post this as I am afraid of being misunderstood... Hopefully since you & those who read you seem to be more enlightened than most, all will be taken as meant.

cmoursler said...

@ margie anne. Yes. That is why I stated that within the church we have our standards. The thing is..if we are going to apply biblical standards to citizenship and it's rights, then people who had premarital sex, adultery (people who have been divorced and remarried for reasons other than infidelity) then we would have to exclude these people from adoption, from marriage. Our laws aren't all biblically based. Especially our marriage laws.
I agree and understand with God's plan for the family. But that is my faith, my religion. We can't use the state to exact our religious standards on a free society.
Big hugs margie,
You sounded loving, not condemnatory.

Deb Willbefree said...

Well, tough subject, that's for sure. I guess I'll just second what MargieAnne said. :) And then add my own 2 cents worth.

So often, when Christians speak the truth--they're accused of being hateful and judgmental. It is neither. Just as I can say that adultery is wrong, I can say that homosexuality is wrong--and so is lying--and stealing.

All of those things are together in the same lsit of sins that cause people to go to hell, by the way. (I wish I could remember the verse.) But liars are listed right there with the homosexual.

Anyway, the Christians who spout hate are not speaking the truth anymore than those who say homosexuality is approved of in the Bible. (The Bible is extraordinarily clear about that.) Both liberal blindness and blind hate are un-Christ-like.

As far as the statement that the reason those who say homosexuality is wrong is because they don't know anyone who is gay--not so much. My brother is gay. He has lived with the same man for almost 20 years.

It breaks my heart; I love him; and he is living in a sin that will cost him his soul if he doesn't repent.

Truth doesn't change because it hurts our hearts,is inconvenient, or makes us look intolerant. Truth is fummy like that.

You're a brave woman, Chris. So is MargieAnne.

Deb

Linda Pressman said...

Chris, thanks for putting into words a particular point I've thought for a long time and haven't seen anywhere: why are religious institutions more accepting (here and there) of gay marriages than the state, when the state has a duty to treat citizens as equals? The first place for equality would be at the state level, let the churches and synagogues then do as per their specific denomination would decide.

About that hate crime - I would imagine the other kids were not believing Christians or faith-bound in any way.

And I'm with you. We're all children of God. I'm not for mindless promiscuity of any type - heterosexual or homosexual - but love is love.

Anonymous said...

M said...

I have felt quite blessed to have Chris as a friend for many years now (dare I mention the word "decades?"). So, when I finally admitted to myself that I am a woman attracted to other women, it actually felt wrong to not mention it to one of the people who knows me best--in some respects, probably better than I know myself (however, I believe this particular proclamation after all these years did throw her for a loop!).

It wasn't that I didn't know I was gay "back in the day," but I never really made peace with my preferences until I was 32. It wasn't that I thought gay people were "bad," I just knew that I have too many people that I care about (and whose opinions I've considered to be more important than my own) who believed that we are ("bad"). Chris didn't say I wasn't neurotic, did she? ;)

In any case, it took some time for me to learn that it is okay for me to value my own beliefs above those of my family--that I can respect their opinions without adhering to them. I was not born to fulfill their wishes, but to live my own life.

Now, to the blog (finally!). There is a particular problem with growing up gay that other minorities (and, obviously, the majorities) don't have to deal with: most of the time, a child who figures out that he or she is gay does not have another gay relative to talk to/relate with in his or her immediate family. Jewish parents raise Jewish children, etc. Moreover, his/her parents did not choose to have a person of minority status to be in the family in the way that, say, Caucasian parents might choose to adopt a Korean child. Thus, if these young men and women are bullied and beaten by their peers, it's not uncommon to feel like there's no one to turn to and only one way out--suicide.

I would be lying if I said that I never contemplated suicide as a teen, even though I was never bullied for being gay. I KNEW that I had tendencies that my family didn't approve of, and that alone was enough to make me feel very much alone--especially after my brother passed away after a long illness. I spent many a night with a blade resting on my wrist and wishing I was selfish enough to go through with it--especially in 7th and 8th grade (which would've been before Chris and I became friends). However, I saw what my brother's death did to my parents and realized that I couldn't willingly force them to go through that with me too.

Anonymous said...

M continued with...

A note (or rather, a tome ;) ) on gay "marriage": The main reason why this is such a hot topic for gays is multi-layered. First of all (though it is the lesser of the arguments, it's easier to explain), it is legal in any state for a post-operative transgender person to marry someone of the "opposite" sex (someone who is born a man but has gender reassignment surgery and legally becomes identified as a woman [though genetically is still male] can marry a man) with all of the rights of a natural-born heterosexual couple. Why is it seen as such a drastic step, then, for two men or two women to "marry" each other?

Secondly (and why I put the word marry in quotes above): As they are currently defined by law, civil unions (also known as domestic partnerships) do not give same-sex couples the same rights as married heterosexual couples. For example, if a couple is legally MARRIED in any state, that marriage is recognized in any state they might move to, even if the marriage would not have been able to occur in that state. In some states, sixteen-year-olds can marry without parental consent, while in other states, the bride and groom must be at least 18. However, if the two 16 y-o move to another state where the min. consenting age is 18, it doesn't matter. Their marriage is still recognized.

Since civil unions are not available in all states, they are not legally recognized everywhere. Moreover, if a couple is joined in a civil union in, say, New Jersey, even if they move to another state that has civil unions, their rights from one state do not transfer to the other one.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't worry so much about the term "marriage" as much as I do about equality of rights. I don't care if it's called a "domestic partnership" (though, quite honestly, that sounds like we clean houses together) as long as I have the same RIGHTS as any heterosexual couple legally joined, be it in a lavish church ceremony, a courthouse quickie, or anything in between.

cmoursler said...

@ my good friend....well put.

cmoursler said...

@ Deb,
I know deb..It's I corinthians 6:9.
However,
But as christians we are to judge within the church...and God is to judge without...I corinthians 5:7-13.
And that, as Christians is what we are to hold to...and I am holding.
What I am saying is that our Government is not the church. It is a representative democracy. We have gay citizens. They deserve equal protection under the law...to say nothing of the ability to go about their daily lives free from physical harm. And as Christians...while we can proselytize...we should do it with love. Not fear or anger.
If we truly have faith, there is nothing to fear.
Big hugs.

Diana P. said...

Chris, thanks for blogging about this. This has been a soap box of my for a long time. I also have a very dear friend who is homosexual. When she came out to everyone, the church, and her family, treated her like shit. They just tossed her out and the only thing they could talk to her about what how she was living in sin.

Here's my thing: everyone who is a liar, and gossip, and glutton, a cheat, etc, are also living in sin. But do we ever hound those people and obsess over their struggles? No. Sin is sin. Some sins are more obvious, some are more destructive (think, murder....), but sin is sin...and Christians are certainly no better at not sinning.

So why can't we love everyone and show them Christ, since EVERYONE has their pet sins. It's not that they shouldn't be dealt with, but Christ needs to deal with them....not hypocrites pointing fingers.

I'm very thankful that my friend views me as the one Christian who still loved her through it all. We are still good friends, she knows my beliefs, but she knows I love her like crazy. And she knows that I sin too. I wish that the church would stop "sending people to hell" and let Jesus help them to heaven instead. Love people. That's what we're called to do!
Again, thanks for addressing this, Chris!

Granny2Em said...

I'm not going to get too deep in to this subject but I will say this. My son is gay. I have known he was gay since he was very young. Since long before he knew it. I watched this child struggle with coming to terms with it. No one knows what they go through coming to terms with the fact that they are "different." I love my son unconditionally. I feel as though god created him that way and I don't believe god makes mistakes. It hurts me that his life has to be so complicated. It hurts me that there are cruel people out there who would like to see him dead just because he is gay. I have been told that I can pray my son straight. I don't want to pray my son straight. I want him just the way god made him. If god wants to change him, that's up to him. I love him no matter what! I support him, the gay community and gay marriage. 100%.

Hallie said...

I like Granny's comment the best :-) I'm atheist so I was just going to let you Christians hash it out but I was so pleased with Granny. I don't believe that anything that doesn't cause harm can be immoral. Though people can sometimes get "hurt" from sexual behavior, there is no moral difference between heterosexual and homosexual behavior. This one is easy because there is no moral conundrum - live and let live, let peace and love reign, do not cause unnecessary strife in the world by ostracizing gays. There's just no point in it. There's absolutely no point at all in saying that gays are not part of God's plan. Not everybody has to have kids - there's plenty of kids being born and living to adulthood these days.

cmoursler said...

let me just say that I like the discussions. I don't think we should descend into any sort of judging of religious beliefs either. M. knows my convictions and I know hers. We respect each other. That is where i would like us all to get to. Accepting that we each hold our own beliefs and that we live in a pluralistic society. Just as we shouldn't hold The Gay community to our standards I don't believe the atheistic or agnostic communities should hold us to their convictions about the nature of right and wrong.
We should all, as far as we are able. live and let live.

former fatty said...

absolutely great post, my Ex husband is gay, he was brought up in a strict Catholic home and taught all through out his child hood that "gay" is BAD and you will go to hell. Well if he hadn't been taught this all his life it would have saved him and I both a lot of heart ache!! He would never married me because he was "doing what he was told was the right thing" to do and not being his true self. He is one of my best friends still, we have a wonderful son together and he is now living a gay lifestyle, but only a couple people know. I completely agree with what you have said people need to NOT judge others and just live their own life and the world would be a happier place. Great post thank you, I will be showing this to my ex gay hubby!!! :)

Tammy said...

I'm like "Former Fatty" in that I have a gay ex-husband...a guy I married just out of high school...we didn't have any kids though. We still love each other very much and always will...he's one of my closest friends...just talked to him this morning as a matter of fact....

I'm a Christian...I have my own views on homosexuality. Despite those views, you are correct in saying it's not our place to judge...and we are to always love one another. It makes me physically ill when I see something on the news about a gay person being brutalized/murdered/tortured, etc. It is absolutely wrong. Just like it's wrong for the whack jobs to bomb abortion clinics in the name of God and call themselves Christians...seriously??? Crazy world we live in....but yes...I agree...don't judge...and love each other. :)

Paula Rodriguez said...

You Rock in so many ways Chris. I'm scared to say it but I think I gotta girl crush... Just joking. I admire you for this post and for many other good traits you have demonstrated over the year through your writing this blog.

I attended a Aids awareness for the latino community last Friday. I have a dear cousin who is gay and when I attended the benefit, I saw my cousin. Giving back. The event was sponsored by this latino doctor in our community. They opened a clinic for those suffering from HIV and Aids and who cannot afford medical care. The goal was to treat these patients with dignity and care.

I too believe in God and what he says about homosexuality but I am not God and I cannot pass judgement. Only he can do that and my job as a good christian is to treat my cousin and others as God would.
We strive for this but it is a challenge. Thank you for the reminder.

paula

Paula Rodriguez said...

Also, thank you for discussing this topic. My cousin struggled with coming out. You know how the Catholic church feels about this and well, imagine how he was treated.

My cousin and I disagree on his lifestyle. But I remember that little boy I used to play with and I remember he is the same person he is now, except he is attracted to men.

I can only imagine what your friend and my cousin went through in coming to terms with their sexuality.

paula

NewMe said...

I have always felt that homosexuality is not a choice. You are born gay or you are born straight. Most people are heterosexual for obvious reasons: our species would die out if we were all gay!

So saying that homosexuality is a sin makes as much sense to me as saying that I am a sinner because I'm so short. I am in a minority, way below the standard height for a woman, but it certainly wasn't my choice. Nor is it my choice to like chocolate or hate the colour turquoise. None of these characteristics make me a better or worse person than anyone else.

If we are good people who do our best not to harm our fellow humans, that's all I care about. And if the afterlife really does exist (as an agnostic, no one has ever succeeded in proving or disproving it to me), I am sure that good people of all sexualities, colours and creeds will get there, while Pastor Fred Phelps will finally learn what hell is really all about.

Red Shoes said...

I posted about Phelps recently...

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....

Somewhere in the Bible, it says:

Judge not lest you be judged...

That kinda sums it all up to me...

~shoes~

cmoursler said...

@ red shoes-yes it does, but beyond the judge not bit...it says by what measure you judge it shall be measured unto you. And the way mr. phelps judges...his ruler is going to be the size of the empire state building...he is creating his own judgement. It's a frightening thing to see.

Anonymous said...

It's interesting to think about what difference being "married" would make in the lives of a gay couple. What would they do any differently than they do now? What "rights" would it afford them that they can't already obtain through other legal avenues (wills, medical power of attorney, etc.)? To my way of thinking, marriage is, legally speaking, simply a statement of approval or preference--which is completely within the perveyance of government--accorded to a group deemed particularly worthy of cultivating. (Think tax breaks for certain businesses; the gov't wants to encourage them, so special benefits are conferred.) For that reason, I see the call for gay marriage as an effort to change hearts and minds far more than an effort to gain for oneself certain benefits (which are in many instances already available). It's about approval and acceptance. It's fine to want approval and acceptance. But my approval is mine to give. And forcing acceptance through legislation sorta stinks. Christians who truly believe that acceptance of the gay lifestyle is an act of hatred are in a tough spot. And make no mistake that legalization of gay marriage WILL change the way people think in the same way that Roe v. Wade is convincing progressive generations that abortion is obviously fine. After all, it's legal, right? To the extent that the push for gay marriage is manipulation--trying to mess with people's minds in a backdoor way that silences one's opponents instead of engaging in open debate--that's when it becomes an unhealthy influence.

cmoursler said...

hmmm...it's an interesting concept.
however, progressive generations are NOT more accepting of Roe v. Wade. For instance we can take a snapshot of the abortion debate via poll...in May of 2006 30 percent of all respondants thought abortion should be legal under any circumstances...in July 2009 21 percent thought abortion should be legal under any circumstances...
As scientific advances shed light on the issue of viability, I think prevailing attitudes will continue to change.
As for marriage being a wholly governmental institution...I disagree...there are two sides to marriage, one is the governmental and one is religious.
As for gaining people's approval...I didn't get married to gain anyone's approval. I got married to have someone to spend my life with under God's blessing. And while, yes...societal approval is a nice thing to have, I am almost positive nobody approves of multiple marriages and divorces.
Yet they occur. If we want to start applying biblical precepts to marital law then we should either apply it across the board. Meaning people can't remarry unless one of the partners was unfaithful and then the unfaithfull partner can never remarry...punishment for premarital sex...you name it.
I understand where people are coming from when they feel that to accept the homosexual lifestyle is to accept that person's separation from God. The simple fact is they are us citizens...tax payers, consenting adults, and whether we agree or don't agree this is not a theocracy. whether we approve or don't approve..we individually don't have the RIGHT to draw a line and say such a thing. I have no idea what sorts of rights can be obtained now, perhaps someone else can fill me in.In any case, I think It's up to the states to decide whether this is an individual right under the law of the land...not under our bible law.
thoughtful response in any case.

Anonymous said...

M again

I just want to interject here that if EACH belief system was correct and "those people" that aren't "like them" will go to hell, NOBODY has to worry about heaven. In general, Catholics believe they are the only ones who will be saved, Jews believe themselves to be the "chosen people," Muslims consider themselves to be on the fast track to paradise, etc. I will not pretend to know who is right or wrong or try to read God's mind (assuming, as I do, that He exists). I simply want to live my life as the best person I can with the values I've acquired through faith, education, experience, and instinct. Life didn't come with one specific instruction book that each and every person on this planet follows--rather, there are several instruction books out there and we all have to sort it out for ourselves.

Imagine, if you would, that we as humans decided in this information age to form a world government. Assume, as well, that this government will be a representative democracy based on population (one vote per person, and each vote has equal weight no matter what country, creed, race, etc. this person considers him/herself to be. Thus, a little more than 1/2 of the votes would be from India and China--based on the experiences, faith, instincts, and education of each of these voters. About 2/3 of the votes would be by non-Christians.

I'm not saying that these people are inherently "bad" or anything--I simply want to point out that their experiences and world views are VASTLY different from our own. Would you have the "majority" dictate to you how you live your life, or would you prefer to keep the government out of your "lifestyle?"

M Pax said...

If God makes us who we are, then we have an obligation to love all creations put on this planet. I don't believe any group of people was placed on the planet to hate. But I think many find it easier to fear and judge than meet and accept.

Hallie said...

I really don't get the idea of thinking it's morally wrong but not judging. It's like, if you think it's morally wrong, then ultimately you think it shoul be different, that it should be changed. But what is the point in that, if their homosexuality is natural. Even if it were a choice, and I don't believe it is (how many times have you looked at a 10 year old boy and known before he did that he was going to be gay?) no one is being hurt. (and If I, as a straight woman, decided to have sex with another woman, that wouldn't be immoral either.). It just doesn't matter to anyone. That's why I was so happy to read that Granny wrote that she wouldn't want to pray her son straight. What a lot of strife to fight nature and make no one happy. It's nice to accept the gays even though you think it's immoral, but it's not as nice as full acceptance. It is still judging, but at least not trying to legislate or control.

cmoursler said...

It isn't up to me to accept or not accept anyone's lifestyle.
My acceptance isn't the issue.
The issue is M's right to live a life that is free and hers.
Because we live in America.
My own religious views are mine.
Just as M's life and views are hers.
That is the entire point of my post.
Whatever anyone may believe about anyone else's beliefs, ideas or lifestyle...it's their life to live.

Shanilie said...

Thank you for visiting my blog. I am sorry if my comment about home schooling offended you. I can understand how it sounded as I didn't give any background. My 2 younger sisters were home-schooled, my brother went to the christian school and I went to public school. my pastor home-schools as well as most of my cousins. I even considered it for my son. We were involved in many social gatherings. But in the process I have also met others who didn't do much. But yes, even in Canada there is a very large home-schooling community. We went through the abeka program.
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What a fabulous and powerful post. I have been seeing more and more about this topic on the news, internet and newspaper and am still amazed by the hateful actions people do towards homosexuals. I too am also a born again Christian and completely agree with everything you have said. I have friends that I went to bible school with and who are now 'gay'. I have seen him ridiculed by everyone - Christian community or not. The one thing that gets me is how it is portrayed on TV is that the 'haters' are all from Christians. Christians are the ones being attacked in the process. As with any controversy in the world, there will be supporters and scoffers. But with this topic we're singled out because the bible speaks against it. But that doesn't mean we're exclusively the ones committing hate crimes.

Cindy said...

"Hallie said...
I really don't get the idea of thinking it's morally wrong but not judging. It's like, if you think it's morally wrong, then ultimately you think it should be different, that it should be changed."

I totally agree... I don't get it either. I think what you're doing is morally wrong but I'm not going to judge you? That would still make me feel like sh*t.

"NewMe said...
So saying that homosexuality is a sin makes as much sense to me as saying that I am a sinner because I'm so short. I am in a minority, way below the standard height for a woman, but it certainly wasn't my choice. Nor is it my choice to like chocolate or hate the colour turquoise. None of these characteristics make me a better or worse person than anyone else."

I don't know how something is a sin when you don't have a choice to be or not be that way.

Again, why I stay outta these topics!

cmoursler said...

@ cindy,
I don't think it's a difficult concept.
I guess thats why I don't go around telling everyone my opinion about their lifestyle. I am a christian, whether that offends anyone or not. M. is a homosexual whether that offends or not. We are going to live our lives according to our conscience whether people agree or don't.
We are very good friends.
We don't judge each other...and I would say that is probably the key. Instead of focusing on what we disagree on, because quite frankly...whether the southern baptist stand on homosexuality isn't something someone agrees with or not, it isn't going to change...and whether someone feels its nurture and a choice isn't going to change M's mind, and a person who knows themselves and knows what they believe wouldn't feel like sh*t.
You know why.
It's like telling someone the sky is green.
you look, you say mmmm...whatever,
and move on.
We should all live our own lives.
I don't say...well, you know...your lifestyle choice is blah blah blah.
It's not my place to say so.
I worry about ME.
It's actually very simple.
it's called mind your own business. lol.
HAVE A GOOD ONE.

Mary Ellen said...

M (the long-winded ;) ) again (I finally signed up for gmail).

I have to say that I do appreciate the lively, respectful, thought-provoking discussion that we're having on this subject. If only we were congress... think of what we could accomplish! :)

I inferred from some of the comments made above (feel free to set me straight [pardon the pun] if I'm out of line) that some people were having trouble with how others were explaining the juxtaposition of how their religion views homosexuality versus how homosexuals (or any other homo sapiens who sin, for that matter) should be treated. Since this was one of the most difficult portions in my personal coming out process that I grappled with, I might be able to pass along some insight.

My grandmother, a very strict Roman Catholic, died Monday at the age of 93. Grandma was a wonderful little spitfire of a woman who had three great loves to which she devoted her entire life: God/the Church (to her, they were entwined), her family, and her country--in that order.

The Catholic Church has been very vocal in condemning homosexuality. Grandma, as I mentioned before, was extremely devout. Grandma had a multitude of grandchildren and great-grandchildren--of whom at least three (two that she knew of) are gay.

When asked recently about this conundrum by some parents of gay children who wanted some advice (Grandma had gone to church several times with my cousin and her longtime partner and introduced them to her fellow churchgoers as a couple without reservation), she explained it rather simply.

She loved all of her family unconditionally and equally. None of us did everything exactly how she'd choose us to, but she also knew that it was not her place to dictate how we should live our lives. Don't get me wrong--Grandma didn't repress her opinions or mince words in order to save our feelings. She simply told us what she thought, made sure we understood her point of view, then left it to us to decide whether or not we'd do things her way or not.

Did she worry about our choices? Sure. Did she get along with some of us better than others? Yes. Did she complain to her confidants when she thought one of us was making a huge mistake? Yup. Did she pray for the souls of those whose lives did not mesh with the doctrine of the Church? Absolutely! However, she did NOT allow her feelings about how we live our lives define how she felt about or treated any of us.

As a human being, I can't think of a better way for us to treat others who are a significant part of our lives (especially the ones that you don't get to choose! ;) ).

It took Grandma about 85 years of life experience to figure out that this was the right approach for her to deal with her loving but sometimes exasperating family. I will be forever grateful to her for teaching me this life lesson in a much gentler way than the path she had to take to figure this out for herself.

Mary Ellen said...

Oops, sorry about the double post. It said it didn't go through the first time.

cmoursler said...

@ mary ellen...hah...I get to call you mary ellen. too cool.
Well, If we could all be a bit like your gramma that would be great.

Mary Ellen said...

@ Anonymous (but not M--I refuse to carry on a conversation with myself in writing. :) )

Marriage has a LOT of inherent rights that come with it that do not come with being a live-in or, in most states, a civilly joined couple. Many of these rights involve economics. For example: for tax purposes, it's better to be married instead of living together. Civil unions in many states do not allow the same exemptions as a married couple's joint return. When a couple is married, one spouse's health insurance can cover the entire family. In many states, gays cannot cover their significant other with his/her policy at the same cost as a married couple can. If you'd like more examples, just Google gay marriage vs civil unions and you'll find a lot of sites that will compare and contrast these discrepancies. It's not a question of what a couple does or does not do together (much like many heterosexual couples who have sex outside the sanctity of marriage).

As I stated earlier, I don't care if it's called "marriage," "domestic partnership," "civil union," "bonabumbugolluckyschlept," or any other name. I'd just like to have the same rights if and when I fall in love with someone and want to make a lifetime commitment to her as my heterosexual countrymen do.